How did you come to join the Stan Kenton Orchestra?
I was fresh out of high school and Stan Kenton came to the Riviera Hotel with his band. Me and a couple of guys in band would go down to the Riviera and stand outside the lounge and listen to Stan’s band all night. We would puff on cigarettes in hopes the security guards would think we were older and not kick us out of the casino. Knowing him from the old days, my mom went down, talked to Stan and asked him if I could audition for the band. He said I could. Are you kidding me?
There was no jazz program in my school. All we did there was marching band, pep band and concert band. That was all I knew. I was, however, listening to jazz at home; Stan’s band, Billy May’s band; the Hi Lo’s, and the Four Freshmen. On the audition Stan passed me a lead part to Gerry Mulligan’s Walking Shoes. I happened to know the arrangement from the record so I managed to get through it okay and Stan thought I could read. He said I could have the first opening in the trumpet section or I could leave the next week with them on the road playing mellophonium. I took the mellophonium spot. I played that instrument for about a year and a half with Stan. What Stan wanted was the richness of the French horn sound in his large brass section but he couldn’t find any French horn players that could swing so he got four trumpet players that couldn’t swing to play mellophonium.
What was it like to be on the road with that band at the age of 18?
It was intimidating. I was just a green kid; I couldn’t play too well. A lot of players didn’t get on Stan’s band until they were at least in their middle to late 20s. By that time in your life you have something going on with your horn; when I was on the band I couldn’t read or play that well. I wasn’t much of a soloist and was just rookie out of high school. It was hard because I was the youngest guy on the band and nobody wanted to hang with me. It was kind of a college education for me being on Stan’s band at that age.
How did your flexibility develop?
Well, the great Charlie Mariano came out on the band in 1961 playing tenor. He was one of the hippest guys on the band and he would hang with me. That was great. He used to talk to me about arranging, theory and harmony in the back of the bus. It was all way over my head because he was a bit of a music scientist. He kept talking about chromatic approaches to writing and harmony. The word chromatic stuck in my head. While I was playing mellophonium in the band I still had my trumpet with me on the road and would take it to jam sessions while we were out in different towns. This was an era when I was actually practicing a little bit because I wasn’t playing trumpet on the gig and I wanted to improve. I was going with what Charlie had told me, chromatics. Now what he was talking about had to do with arranging and harmonic concepts, even though I had no idea what he was talking about. For me, I started to work hard on chromatic scales and chromatic patterns. I would go up and down the horn on chromatic scales. To this day I attribute my finger flexibility to working on chromatic patterns.
When I’m out on clinics I will tell the kids to put at least 10 minutes of chromatic scale practice into their routine in order to improve their finger flexibility. On regular scales you skip notes, but with the chromatic scales you play all the notes so your second and third fingers get more work. I think I can get around the horn, technique wise, pretty well even though I never studied classical trumpet. I call myself illegit, but those chromatic scales made my fingers more flexible than they would have been if I hadn’t practiced them.
The year when I was playing drums out on the road with my uncle Bobby (Sherwood), I practiced a lot of trumpet then because I wasn’t playing it on the gig. I’d go to different music stores out on the road and pick up different trumpet method books. I busted my chops playing them during the day. That one year on the road, while I was playing drums, was probably the most practicing I ever did on the trumpet. Then I left that group and went out with Si Zentner’s band playing trumpet.
So the quote I found attributed to you where you were supposed to have said, “I never took lessons and I never practiced, but I played a lot,” is not quite true.
Well, actually it is true. Except for that stint playing drums when I practiced a lot during the day I never really practiced much at all. It’s not that I didn’t want to practice but living in Las Vegas we played two shows a night six nights a week so none of the trumpet players would practice during the day because our chops were so beat up from the gig the night before we had to rest. That’s when a lot of us got into golf. When I was on the road with different bands, after the gig I would find the jazz clubs in whatever town we were in and go blow. You could say I practiced under actual conditions. I played all the time in Vegas. We’d play the shows, get through around two a.m. and then head to the clubs to blow or we would go to my house and play; I had a set of drums, a bass and piano in my front room. We’d play till 5 or 6 in the morning. Sometimes, in the summer, we’d leave the clubs at nine a.m., still in our gig suits, and drive home when it was already 105 degrees outside.
At one point you worked with Harry James.
Yes. In 1978 I was working at the Hilton Hotel in Vegas playing piano in the dinner music group before the show. The Harry James band came there to do a private party in one of the convention rooms and his drummer Sonny Payne missed his plane so Harry’s band manager came back stage in the show room and was in a panic to find a drummer. I had just got home after my piano gig when the guys in the Hilton show band told Harry’s manager to call me, which he did, and I played drums with the Harry James band that night. I spent a year on the road with Harry’s band in 1966 playing trumpet when Buddy Rich was on the band. The night I played drums with Harry he was drunk before the first set and didn’t even recognize me but he played great and never missed a note; an amazing trumpet player.
You have seemingly effortless range. Was there ever a point when you said to yourself, “I need to develop my range?”
I never had much range. One day I found this mouthpiece, it was a Burt Herrick, and all of a sudden I could play high notes. It had nothing to do with technique, it was just the mouthpiece. I remember my trumpet player friend in Vegas, Herbie Phillips, called it, “The breaking the barrier mouthpiece.” All of a sudden I was starting to play a little lead. My first actual gig playing lead was with Maynard’s band when he came to the Tropicana Hotel lounge in 1967. I used to go out front and play “fox hunt” with him. When we started blowing I’d do pretty good for a while but when he went into his thing he’d of course make mincemeat out of me.
Even today when I do clinics kids will come up to me to ask questions and their main question is, “What exercises do I do to play higher, stronger, and longer with more endurance.” I asked one kid what mouthpiece he was playing. He said a 1C. I usually take a couple of shallower lead type mouthpieces on the road with me in order to let the kids try them out, and see how they feel. They try them and are amazed at how high they can play. I changed one girl’s life last year at a clinic. She was trying to play lead in her high school band with a 3C and was scuffling. She had trouble playing a high C. I told her, “If you’re going to be a lead player you have to at least have a high C.” I pulled out a Bach 7D, which is a little shallower, and had her play it. She put it in and went sailing up there. She just didn’t realize 1 and 3C’s are not lead mouthpieces. She was just a high school kid and I kind of changed her life by having her play a little shallower cup. She’s wailing now.
What about the flexibility?
That’s a good question. I think I just heard things in my head that I wanted to play. They were more saxophonic in nature; things that were more saxophone oriented, things trumpet players don’t usually try to play. It wasn’t an overnight thing. It took me time to develop those abilities. There was a long development of working licks out. When I was out on the road with bands I’d find a cab driver, when the gig was over, and then go out and find a jazz club in order to go play. Everybody would ask, “Aren’t you tired?” Well, I wanted to play. I’d play on the gig and then I’d go play at the jam session. That was my practicing. I practiced on gigs and at sessions.
I would practice on the shows. For example, I would play along with the section and when it came time for us to take a breath I would stop with them but not take a breath. I was trying to develop a full sound with less air and less effort. Today I tell the students my trumpet axiom, “use the least amount of air to get the job done to its fullest.” In other words, don’t overblow. I see most trumpet players, great trumpet players, including studio guys here in L.A., overblowing. They are also playing too loud.
Carl Fontana had a lot to do with it. He played very soft and was very flexible. He could get around that trombone better than anybody. He never played loud. He’d play soft and easy. I learned from that and started to try to play like that. That was when my flexibility improved immensely. If you overblow your flexibility goes out the window. Most trumpet players overblow. Most trumpet teachers pound away at using more air and support. “More support, more diaphragm, more air.” They say it over and over, trying to get the kids to play with more air. I seem to have gone the total opposite way. I back off of the air stream. It’s a velocity thing. I talk to the kids at clinics and tell them you have to put a speed limit on the velocity of your air stream. You have to back off. Everyone is trying to handle their trumpet problems by blowing more air and using more support.
What I found was that when I reduced the miles-per-hour of my air stream things opened up. My flexibility improved, my intonation was more in control, I could get around the horn better, and I don’t need to play that loud. For crying out loud, we have a trumpet in our hands; it’s designed for sound and volume. Most trumpeters are into higher, faster, louder. That is the mentality of trumpet, and that is the way the instrument is taught. When I talk to students about this I tell them that what I’m going to tell them no one agrees with me about or does it but I still think it’s the right way to approach the horn for the sake of the music.
How does this apply to when you’re playing lead in a large ensemble?
When I play lead I try to back off and disappear into the section. I try to focus more on blend and balancing the chord. If you listen to record after record after record, with any big band, you always hear the lead trumpet player sticking out. The people who mix the music always want to hear the lead trumpet. Lead trumpeters themselves want to stick out. They usually have edgy mouthpieces and want to bury everybody. Back in the 50’s and 60’s, during Al Porcino’s day, the cats were playing Bach mouthpieces and it was easy to blend and play unisons. Now-a-days you don’t see too many Bach mouthpieces because they have all gone to customized pieces that are shallower, made for easier high notes and more endurance, but it’s harder to play in tune with each other with these custom pieces. When I was with Si Zentner’s band in the early 60’s Arnie Chycoski was the lead player and he played on a Bach 7C. He could nail As, Bs and double Cs, and they were big and in tune.
Jazz players express themselves artistically with their solos. How do lead players express themselves artistically? They hang over when everybody else has cut off, they play something up an octave when they’re not supposed to, and they’ll play some high note on the end that is not on the chord. I know I’m being hard on them but they have been hard on us for years. My thing is to back off, to play the trumpet more delicately, including when I’m playing lead. Of course there are situations where you’ll be playing at a big outside venue and the amps and monitors are too loud, it’s hard to hear and the least amount of air to get the job done to its fullest is everything you have. I tell my students the trumpet is not a weapon of mass intonation. It is a warm, sensitive, beautiful, musical instrument on which wonderful things can be played.
In your clinics you mention you have perfect rhythm, and you’ve said the key to swinging is, “To stay on top of the beat, but don’t rush.” Could you explain this?
There is the middle of the beat, and if everybody would play in the middle of the beat the world would be a beautiful place to live in, but people don’t. Most people drag because they’re concentrating on the notes more than the time. Saxophones, trombones, and even rhythm sections, for some reason, are a little behind the beat, of course there are the nervous people that rush. I’ve always wondered what the mechanics of swinging was. You know, when you walk into a club and you hear a band playing and you continue with your conversation. The band is playing, but you’re having a conversation about football or something. The reason you’re having that conversation is because the band’s not swinging. If the band was swinging you wouldn’t have that conversation because the swinging beat would hypnotize you. I rarely hear bands surgically swing. The art of swinging is playing on top of the beat without rushing. It’s a live driving feeling while still maintaining a pocket.
I was just at North Texas State University. (UNT) I did two lectures and a trumpet clinic in one day. The lectures were for the jazz majors; a whole auditorium jazz majors. The first thing I asked was what their definition of jazz was. All these jazz majors and nobody raised their hand; nobody, not one person. So I said, “Jazz is the reason you’re here but you can’t define the reason you’re here.” So I gave them my definition of jazz, which is, “intellectual funk with a hypnotic beat.” I told them if they came up with a better one to let me know.
All my life I have researched, in the back of my mind, what are the fundamentals and mechanics of swinging? What is it? Everybody should be swinging; it should be second nature for musicians, and especially jazz musicians. I finally came up with the answer. What it is, is a steady beat that doesn’t rush or drag. It has to be a beat that keeps going on and on and on. You find the right tempo, quarter equals 138 or whatever, and then you stay there. If you stay there long enough it will hypnotize the audience, but if you rush or drag even a little you will lose the spell. A hypnotist swings a little thing in front of you and as you watch it you are hypnotized. If the band swings the people concentrating on listening will be hypnotized. I maintain that it is the swinging that hypnotizes the audience.
The analogy I use in clinics is the Chinese Water Torture. The Chinese figured out how to drive people crazy. They strapped people down and dripped water on their forehead. What is it that drives people crazy? Is it that they can’t wipe the water out of their eyes, or is it that it gets on their shirt and can’t do anything about it because their hands are tied and it drives them crazy? No. It’s the timing of the drops that first hypnotizes them, then if it continues long enough it drives them crazy. It’s our responsibility as jazz musicians to swing, which is to say, “Put the Chinese water torture on the audience.” Hypnotize them with the beat, then drive them nuts by continuing it without variance. As they say, “Cop that groove and never let it go.”
Yes. If you continue the exact timing of the drops it will drive people crazy. If you look at all the 1940s swing bands, like Benny Goodman’s band, Basie’s band you’ll see the audiences, the bobby-soxer girls and such, you’ll see them jumping up and down going crazy over the music. This is because the bands were swinging.
It made people want to get up and dance. Of course the Chinese water torture is a form of punishment, where driving people crazy with swinging jazz is a wondrous and joyous crazy thing.
I found another quote of yours relating to why bands don’t swing. You said, “One of the reasons is because the leader has too many of his friends on the band.” With that in mind, what are you looking for in the musicians you hire to be in your band?
Yep, I said that, and it’s true. I can’t remember who said it, maybe Artie Shaw, but the quote is, “Give me a (bleep) who can play.” I just try to find the guys who can play in tune, swing and play in time. There are very few people who can swing and play in such a way as to elicit that swinging feeling I’m talking about. I have another phrase I use in clinics a lot. You’ve heard the phrase, follow the drummer or follow the bass player? Well, if you follow somebody it’s a mathematical fact that you’ll be behind them. In music the idea is to be together, so there is no following anyone. Follow the lead player is a phrase that should never be used in the music game. If you follow you’ll be behind, and you don’t want to be behind. You want to anticipate where it’s going to be and be there. They know where it’s at and are there without having to rely on anyone else. They duplicate each other naturally. Becoming one with each other is the goal with time and pitch.
In the music market jazz is a small commodity in comparison to country music or rock and roll or pop music. Look at the Grammy Awards, they don’t even televise the awarding of those jazz awards. They sweep those awards under the carpet by giving those awards out during the afternoon. Then on TV at night they show the rappers, the country people, the rockers and popular music people. I think all you need to know about jazz’s place in the market is that those afternoon Grammy awards aren’t even handed out in the same building as the nighttime awards.
You’re absolutely right. I think the reason jazz is a minority market is because it is being misrepresented in public. People are not swinging, they are not doing this thing I’m talking about, the Chinese Water Torture, the steady beat. For some reason people don’t want to play together with a steady beat. I have studied this in my mind for years and years, and I think it’s the steady beat that we need to teach in jazz; how to swing in order to create that feeling. I don’t see it and I don’t hear it. Nobody has studied swinging. I feel like I’ve dedicated my life to studying this. If music is not swinging it’s not happy. If it is swinging you’ll have a smile on your face and you’ll be tapping your foot. Listening to actual and real swinging is an intensely beautiful and rare thing to behold. Duke Ellington said it long ago. “It don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that swing.” Boy was he right.
I remember when a friend of mine once had a ticket to go see Tony Williams’ band at Catalina’s jazz club. He couldn’t go and gave me the ticket. I usually don’t go out and hear a lot of people but I took the ticket and went down to see Tony’s band. He started out the gig playing by himself. He started on the cymbals. It was beautiful. Then all of a sudden he started playing some time by himself. I was sitting there listening to a guy hit wood on brass cymbals and drum heads, and I got chills down the back of my neck. The band hadn’t even started playing yet. He was just hitting drums. I was melting in my seat as I listened to this master coax beautiful music out of his drums.
I’ve also came up with another reason why bands don’t swing, and it applies to all sections; trumpets, trombones, saxophones, etc. We’re all a part of the rhythm section. Fourth trombone, second trumpet, everyone has the responsibility of playing rhythm or time, just as much as the rhythm section. Unfortunately they don’t feel they’re responsible for playing the rhythm. Instead they feel they should be playing the melody and notes. If you’re only into notes and not concentrating on the time you won’t be swinging, and this means the band doesn’t swing.
Some people drive by a club that has a sign out front that says, Jazz. These people say, “Hey, let’s go in and see what jazz is all about.” They go in and there’s a small band with an alto player and they’re playing (Carl sings a sloppy melodic rhythm). Nobody is swinging; they’re just muttering through the changes or even playing some outside experimental stuff that even musicians themselves are scratching their head about. What do the people that came in to check out jazz say? “Check please.” This is what is going on in clubs everywhere because club owners don’t know music. Musicians go to the club owner and say, “I ‘m great, give me a gig.” Most people who can talk their way into a gig via the gift of gab are usually not the better players. The better players are usually the more introverted people who don’t have that gift of gab, who can’t talk themselves into a gig, and who don’t have the nerve to do that. Those are the sensitive players, and are the ones that should be out there representing jazz and good tasteful music.
In relation to this you have an interesting thought about who the section leader should be in a trumpet section.
Yes. He should not be automatically the biggest, strongest guy. It should be the best musician in the trumpet section. The guy who knows the most about music, the guy who has the more tasteful approach about music who should be making the calls as to where the section should breathe, where to distribute parts as well as all of the other decisions the lead trumpeter makes. Of course this will never happen. It is usually the guy that can play the highest and strongest in the section that plays lead and is automatically the “section leader.” Just a thought.
With regard to soloing, one exercise you recommend on your website for learning improvisation is to, “practice blowing on a never ending cycle of minor 7s resolving up a 4th and then making that the new minor 7th and etc. (For) example, Cmi7 to F7, Fmi7 to Bb7, Bbmi7 to Eb7, Ebmi7 to Ab7, and so on.” When you were young, how did you develop your soloing chops? Who was your inspiration? What helped you focus in on what became your soloing concepts?
Yes, that cycle of minor 7s resolving up a fourth is what I call my “Jazzersize 1.” It’s similar to the bridge to I’ve got Rhythm but continues to infinity. “Jazzersize 2” resolves up another fourth to a major 7. My first inspiration was my uncle, Bobby Sherwood. I suggest the readers listen to his band and to listen to him play. He played better than Bunny Berigan or Bix Beiderbecke or any of those early jazz trumpet players. If you listen to Bobby play, you’ll hear him play some great half-valve things that were very funky and kind of leaning towards Clark Terry. He had a lot of soul as they say. There is an album I highly recommend, Bobby Sherwood, The Issued Recordings 1942-1947 (Jazz Band Records). He played and wrote beautifully. He was the first guy I heard play trumpet.
One of the tenor players on Bobby’s band was Dave Pell. He married Bobby’s other sister, my aunt Caroline, which made him another uncle of mine. Dave started the Dave Pell Octet back in the 1950s. His trumpet player was Don Fagerquist. When I played my uncle Dave’s record I heard Don. I loved the way he phrased. I highly suggest trumpeters listen to him. He was on Les Brown’s band, and was the first trumpet player to play with the Dave Pell octet. He had a beautiful, flowing, wonderful, fluid, melodic, pretty and happy approach to playing the trumpet which you rarely hear. He was the guy who inspired me. I always tried to play like him. Even in clinics I always tell the kids to go find a record he’s on and listen to it. I wish more trumpet players would pattern their approach to playing trumpet like Don did. Don was so sensitive, warm, and flowing, and he was the guy who got me into playing the way I play. People come up to me and say, “I hear a little Don in your playing.” Every time that happens it makes me feel pretty good. When you hear him play you wonder why people don’t play trumpet like that. Some people have told me that I have taken Don’s style of playing to a new level and maybe I have, but I still love to listen to his recordings even today. Listening to him never gets old. There is a record called, Listen To The Music Of Russell Garcia (Kapp). Don is one of the featured players on it. He plays an original and a great rendition of Boy Next Door. Phenomenal and beautiful trumpet playing. There are only two records under his own name, Eight By Eight (VSOP), and Portrait Of A Great Jazz Artist (Fresh Sounds).
Don played long phrases, just like you.
People have come up to me for years asking me if I circular breathe because I play such long phrases. Fagerquist played long phrases too; maybe that influenced me, I don’t know. My breathing concept, using the least amount of air to get the job done to its fullest, can result in long phrases too. When they come up and ask if I circular breath I always tell them that I breathe like a Republican and play like a Democrat.
The other guy I listened to was Kenny Dorham. Kenny was called the uncrowned king. He would play beautiful lines. He was such a sensitive trumpet player. I loved his playing. I think my favorite solo of Kenny was on “Like someone in love” on Art Blakey’s jazz messengers at the cafe bohemia. Then of course when Freddie Hubbard came around he was the heavyweight champion of jazz trumpet.
Another influence on my soloing was Carl Fontana and the breathing concepts I picked up from him. He always played within himself. He was the perfect example of how finding the right MPH of your air stream can create optimum flexibility.
Another guy I learned from was Buddy Childers. He was in Las Vegas. When I was growing up and starting to play shows, because at that time trumpeters were dropping like flies and they would have to call a kid like me to help out. I would play with a bunch of these showband lead players. I would leave and go home saying to myself, “I don’t want to sound like that showband lead player I played with tonight.” He would be loud, edgy, and raucous. Then I’d play another showband with a lead player who had no sensitivity, and I’d say the same thing to myself again. I kind of learned how to play by what not to do. But I remember playing a show with Buddy, and he played sort of like Carl Fontana. (Saunders sings a real sensitive lead line.) He played easy and cool. He used to say, “I’m not going to sacrifice my chops for showbiz.” I learned so much from playing with him. Between him and Carl Fontana I got my breathing thing going and that helped me develop flexibility as well as the ability to play soft high notes. My advice for lead players is, “Make your base of operations mezzo forte, be cool and easy, never let the band leader ask for less, stay on top of the beat but don’t rush, and be one with the bass player.”
Trumpet – Burbank Benge ML 3X with a Bach 10½ C mouthpiece for playing jazz or a smaller and shallower non-numbered Schilke for big band lead playing.
Flugelhorn – Olds with a stock Olds mouthpiece.
As A Leader
Lost Bill Holman Charts (Mama, 2007)
Blues On The Side (3d, 2007)
Can You Dig Being Dug? (Itsus, 2005)
Live In San Francisco (Birdland, 2003)
Phil Urso and Carl Saunders Salute Chet Baker (Jazzed Media, 2003)
Phil Woods and Carl Saunders Play Henry Mancini (Jazzed Media, 2003)
Be Bop Big Band (Sea Breeze, 2002)
Live At Capozzoli’s (Woofy, 2002)
Eclecticism (SNL, 2000)
Out Of The Blue (SNL, 1996)
With Paul Anka
At Caesars Palace (Cool Cats, 1970)
With Louie Bellson
Concord Jazz Heritage Series (1998)
Art Of The Chart (Concord, 1998)
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Let Me Off Uptown (Telarc, 2005)
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New Beginning (Discovery, 1987)
With Frank Capp
Play It Again Sam (Concord, 1996)
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The Southern Big Band (Self-released, 2009)
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A Touch Of Blue (Universal, 2003)
With Buddy Charles
We’re Here (Jazzed Media, 2005)
With Natalie Cole
Still Unforgettable (DMI, 2008)
Snowfall on the Sahara (Elektra, 1999)
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Live at the Sands (Reprise, 1967)
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Singing & Swinging (Concord, 2001)
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Bittersweet (JaHu, 2005)
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Eternal Licks And Grooves (MAMA, 2007)
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Serendipity 18 (MAMA, 1999)
Earth (MAMA, 1997)
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Time (Rhombus, 2002)
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Like Young (Dolphin, 1999)
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Sings (Contemporary, 2004)
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Hommage (Jazzed Media, 2007)
Live (Jazzed Media, 2005)
Brilliant Corners (JVC, 1997)
A View From The Side (JVC, 1995)
Stan Kenton 50th Anniversary Celebration (Mama, 1991)
Bill Holman Big Band (JVC, 1987)
With Shirley Horn
You’re My Thrill (Verve, 2001)
With Harry James
1954-66 (Giants Of Jazz, 1999)
Live At The Riverboat (Dot, 1966)
With Stan Kenton
Unrecorded Stan Kenton (Sounds Of Yesteryear, 2008)
Horns Of Plenty, Vol. 3 (Tantara, 2003)
Horns Of Plenty, Vol. 2 (Tantara, 2003)
Horns Of Plenty, Vol. 1 (Tantara, 2003)
50th Anniversary Celebration: Back to Balboa, Volume 6 (MAMA, 2001)
Artistry In Progressive Jazz (Indigo, 1998)
Jazz Profile (Blue Note, 1997)
50th Anniversary Celebration: Back to Balboa (MAMA, 1995)
Best Of Stan Kenton (Capitol, 1995)
50th Anniversary Celebration: The Best of Back to Balboa (MAMA, 1991)
Retrospective (Blue Note, 1992)
Tex Ritter (Capitol, 1962)
At Holiday Ballroom Chicago 1962 (Status, 1962)
More Mellophonium Moods (Status, 1962)
Mellophonium Moods (Status, 1962)
The Sound Of 62 (First Heard, 1961)
Adventures In Standards (Capitol, 1961)
Sophisticated Approach (Capitol, 1961)
Mellophonium Magic (Status, 1961)
Adventures In Blues (Creative World, 1961)
Adventures In Jazz (Creative World, 1961)
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When I Look In Your Eyes (Verve, 1999)
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Goes To The Movies (18th & Vine, 2007)
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With Mt. Hood Jazz Band
I’m Still Here (Sea Breeze, 2007)
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Wide Range (Concord, 2003)
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On The Town (Sea Breeze, 1997)
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With Dave Pell
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Live In Paradise (Group Seven, 2001)
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Las Vegas Jazz Orchestra (Sea Breeze, 1986)
The Music Of (Sea Breeze, 1983)
With Michie Sahara
I Need A Dream (Sea Breeze, 2001)
With Bud Shank
Taking The Long Way Home (Jazzed Media, 2006)
With Bobby Shew
Live In Switzerland (TCB, 2003)
With Charlie Shoemake and the Bill Holman Orchestra
Strollin’ (Chase Music, 1991)
Satin Nights (Blackhawk, 1986)
With Horace Silver
The Continuity Of Spirit (Silveto, 1985)
With The Simpsons
Testify (Shout! Factory, 2007)
With Keely Smith
Keely Swings Basie Style… With Strings (Concord, 2002)
Swing, Swing, Swing (Concord, 2000)
With Yevette Stewart
The Love Project (JaHu, 2005)
With Dan Terry
Big Big Band (Metronome, 1981)
With Texas Christian University Jazz Ensemble
Dream On (Sea Breeze, 2004)
With Michael Tompkins
A Beautiful Friendship (Brookside, 1995)
With Gary Urwin
Living In The Moment (Sea Breeze, 2003)
Rush Hour 2 Soundtrack (Varese Sarabande, 2001)
With Mike Vax
Sounds From The Road (Summit, 2009)
Next Stop: Live… On The Road (Summit, 2005)
With Chris Walden
No Bounds (Origin, 2006)
Home Of My Heart (Origin, 2005)
With Phil Woods
Unheard Herd (Jazzed Media, 2006)
With Anthony Wilson
Adult Themes (MAMA, 1999)
Anthony Wilson (MAMA, 1997)
With Gerald Wilson
Theme For Monterey (MAMA, 1997)
With Si Zentner
Desafinado (Liberty, 1962)